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What to charge
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I have been asked to do a 3 day horse event in august, which would require me to take photos of from 10 am till 6 pm for 2 of the days and a few hours on the third day. I have no idea what to charge for this or what sort of deal to go for. Anyone wish to give me some advice on this. I have shot horse events and I am familiar with the schedule of events, I have just never done any paid work in this area.
Thanks in advance.Nicola
What is the output? What do they want, in terms of the number of images, usage of images, etc?
For me, I would be looking for about €900 or so. But, it would greatly depend.
If they asked somebody who is going to do it first time Paul they wont pay 900. If they would like to get pro they will hire you for example.
But other side is you will spent 20 hours plus editing +phone calls etc 20 hours, if you are begginer you have to get 10 euro /h. If it will be first time i will be hapy if i will get € 400.
Ps. all depands on your quality and how known you are in market if you good charge more if bad less, you can be bad and well established and charge more or much better, but just starting and have to charge less:Are you insured? are you registered? have back up equipment if something go wrong?
Are you enjoyable:)?
(. Some pople like black and white photos with red rose, some like art, compare to other, send email to other sport photographer with question, it is best way to know HOW MUCH.
Good luckNLEEPHOTOS wrote:
I have been asked to do a 3 day horse event in august, which would require me to take photos of from 10 am till 6 pm for 2 of the days and a few hours on the third day.
Sounds great Nicola.
To try and answer your questions here about ‘what to charge for this or what sort of deal to go for’ my questions to you would be:
How many hours in total do you estimate you will have to spend here (Pre-production time, Photography time, Post-production time, Travelling time) ?
Plus, what do you estimate your expense are going to be (Food, CD’s, Contact sheets, Parking tickets, Travelling expenses, Insurance, Hire of equipment, etc) ?Because if you add all of that up, that would be your basic production costs here i.e. your starting point when it comes to negotiating the fee, for what they are asking you to provide them with here (which I assume is some images for them to use).
Now assuming you will need to pay for all of this in advance – BEFORE they will pay you anything here – then my next question to you would be: ‘What will they actually get from you – in their hands so to speak – AFTERWARDS ?’
Because that’s what you will actually be billing them for here i.e. for the use of YOUR images – after you have created them, which are protected under the Copyright Designs & Patents Act 1988.
So therefore, the fee would all depend on what they will actually get from you here – AFTERWARDS.
So:-
1. How many of your images will they get to use (1, 2, 3, 30, 300, etc) ?
2. In which media can they use your images in (Billboards, Brochures, Direct Mail, Prints, Magazine ads, Newspaper ads, Point of sale, Posters, Television, Worldwide web) ?
3. How long can they use your images for (1 month, 1 year, 3 years, 10 years) ?
4. Where in the world can they use your images (Ireland only, UK & Ireland, Europe, Worldwide) ?All of which you should clearly state when quoting a fee here, so as to avoid any misunderstandings down the road, as to what this amount you are quoting is actually for.
Because this is what they will be actually paying you for – afterwards – which is a Licence to use your images.
This is assuming they will actually want you to provide them with some images here, for them to use afterwards – as opposed to just paying you for 3 days of your time to turn up & stand around.
PhotoSligo wrote:
.. all depands on your quality and how known you are in market if you good charge more if bad less…
Yes – so what is the difference between Good & Bad or what’s the difference between Good, Very Good & just Good enough ?
And since the images have not yet been produced, then how does your client know which it is they are going to get here at this stage ?Or put it another way, if they said they only wanted to pay you 200 here instead of 400, what would the difference be ?
Or if they if said they would be happy to pay you 800 instead of 400, what would the difference be ?In others words, you need to look at this from THEIR point of view – because if agreeing to pay you less or more doesn’t appear to make any real difference to them or to what they will actually get from you, then it should be obvious that they are not going to want to pay you a penny more than they have to.
Ashley wrote:
And since the images have not yet been produced, then how does your client know which it is they are going to get here at this stage ?
I think today if you hire somebody you have to see portfolio, and it will give you idea what you can expect.
PhotoSligo wrote:
I think today if you hire somebody you have to see portfolio, and it will give you idea what you can expect.
Expect to get for 200 or 400 or 800 ?
Or does the price not really matter – because you will still produce and then provide them with the same number of images – just like the ones in your portfolio – for them to use in whatever media they want, for as long as they want, wherever they want ??
It was answer for question: How does client know what will get for price. As you asked.
It is first time somebody would like to charge for work, no point to complicated to much. Somebody is looking for simple help on very beginning stage, never done any paid work so my advice is not charge to much as before you start charging you have to be well prepared (insurance,backup,customer skills, accounting etc etc)
You don’t jump into photography with pricing anyway, You start, you learn, you understand build a portfolio, offer free work, get an understanding of your work, understand your style and eventually consider charging later on.
A photography business is NOT something you just jump in on and hope for the best. You need to understand settings and the technical side of the job and understand the ins and outs of lighting and understand your camera, understand business before anyone should be charging anything.. Knowledge first, business later.
I’m not sure all that terms and condition and complicated contracts are helpful on this stage.
Ashley it is well know problem with photography : how much charge and what is bad, good and very good, and there is no one simple answer.
We can simply price our work, like here:
PhotoSligo wrote:
Ashley it is well know problem with photography : how much charge and what is bad, good and very good, and there is no one simple answer.
Correct, so what’s your suggestion then ?
Are you saying that Nicola should just pick a number here – to keep it simple – between 10 & 650 – and not worry to much about what her client actually wants or what they may need to use these images for ?
Or should she at less try to make an attempt to give them a price based on some sort of logical pricing system, so as they can start to understand why asking for more will cost them more or why asking for less will cost them less ?
For example: if they wanted 1000 images, that would cost more than 10 images – right !!
And if they wanted these images to be ‘good enough’ for them to use in multiple media (Magazine ads, Posters, Billboards, Television, etc), that would cost more than if they just needed some quick snaps for their local newspaper – right !!
And if they needed the images to be ‘good enough’ so as they would still be wanting to use them in 3 years time – in all of the above media – that would cost more than if they only had to be ‘good enough’ for 1 weeks use their local newspaper – right !!
And if they said they needed to use these images in all of the above media cross American and Europe too – then clearly these images would need to be pretty Wow – meaning they would cost more – right !!Because it’s these last 3 things that will tell you how good these images actually need to be… to meet your client’s usage requirements here – right !!
So it therefore stands to sense, that you should clearly state this information on your quote – because it’s this information what you are using to determine what the fee should, for you to successfully produce & them provide them with such images for them to use.
So it’s really not that complicated – as you just need to clearly state these facts here – as it’s this information that relates to what they will get from you, for the amount you are quoting. Do that, and then you will both know not only what the deal is, but also how good the images need to be here… to meet their usage requirements.
Nicola, if you want to know what you should charge, then I’d suggest you follow the guidelines set out by the various professional photography associations, like the Association of Photographers (AOP) or even the American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP) – as they are both well established and are there to help you get it right. And yes you will see, if you read what they say, that it’s not just as simple as saying you should charge X – because there are more than 100 different ways to shoot any subject.
Do not go to any professional association for advice do not pay any business advisor.
Nicola tell them €100 a day. Treat it as your practice . If you will get next job on photography you will know what is going and next time you will be more familiar with everything.I guess we have to different photographers , working at two different levels, with two different ideas on how work should be priced. Ive always liked Ashley’s work and his approach to pricing, but if you were to use his advise on this one you might just price yourself out of the job. Which is not to say that his prices are to high. It’s more of a reflection on how other people see photography and what it’s worth.
On the other hand I would not do this type of work for €100 a day that price in no way reflects the amount of work that will be required, you might think that it’s €300 earned but when you take out travel and all the other costs that you will have to pay plus the time spent editing that €300 will soon look , not so attractive.
Also people are looking for you to deliever images when you are getting paid, so never treat a paid job as practice.
I guess your price might fall somewhere in the middle of both of the above. But what I really think is that the price they want it for will be less than €100 per day!!.
You don’t always have to jump at work offered to you.
damiend wrote:
Ive always liked Ashley’s work and his approach to pricing, but if you were to use his advise on this one you might just price yourself out of the job. Which is not to say that his prices are to high.
But then again, since I didn’t actually indicate what the price should be, then you don’t actually know if the price I would suggest Nicola charges here, would be to high or not !!
Because in my opinion, there are still way to many unanswered questions here, to be able to give Nicola even an indication of what to charge.
So telling her to charge €100 a day or whatever, without first knowing how many images they will require or even knowing what all they will need to use those images for, is totally crazy in my opinion – and a sure way to guarantee that she will fail.
Which I’m actually starting to think is some people’s goal here i.e. advice her badly so as she will fail – and then may be the next time this client will ask me instead. :wink:
But then again, since I didn’t actually indicate what the price should be, then you don’t actually know if the price I would suggest Nicola charges here, would be to high or not !!
Very true just an assumption on my part :)
But I do find your last comment interesting and I’m not sure if it’s tongue in cheek or not ..
So telling her to charge €100 a day or whatever, without first knowing how many images they will require or even knowing what all they will need to use those images for, is totally crazy in my opinion – and a sure way to guarantee that she will fail.
Which I’m actually starting to think is some people’s goal here i.e. advice her badly so as she will fail – and then may be the next time this client will ask me instead. :wink:
damiend wrote:
But I do find your last comment interesting and I’m not sure if it’s tongue in cheek or not ..
I assumed by putting the ‘smilie wink’ at the end of the comment, you would have known I was only joking.
A joke with a jag, as they say, hence the :wink:
Anyway, they do say ‘Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups’ – so getting back to Nicola’s question here, I would simply say: Don’t assume, put it in writing – and be sure to clearly state the facts relating to what they will actually get, for the amount you are quoting.
For example:-
To produce & provide 50 images of a 3 day horse event in August at the Green Glens Arena in County Cork.
For exclusive use, for Millstreet Horse Show to use these images for:-
Media use: Brochures, Worldwide web & promotional emails only.
Period of use: 1 year (ends 31st August 2014).
Territory of use: Ireland plus the Internet only.
(BUR: €10.00* per image).
Licence fee based on the above: 50 x €10.00* = €500.00**These figures are not recommendations, but are just provided as guidelines, for negotiation based on current trade practice.
So that way, should they want more (images to use or use of the images) than this, then the fee would be more OR should they want less (images to use or use of the images) than this, then the fee would less… which is only fair in my opinion.
This would also mean you would both now know were you stand here – should they agree to this – because they would know what it is that they will get for that amount you have quoted, and you would know what it is you have to do to achieve what is needed here i.e. you would know how many images they need and you would also know how good those images would need to be, to meet their usage requirements here.
Thereby avoiding assumption as much as possible :)
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